Debate Week Season 6 Finale! Day 8: Godzilla 2014 vs Queen Legion!

Once again, fanboys overrating the big CGI kaiju. In the film alone, he had been beat. The two MUTOs were pummeling him into paste (and yes, there was obvious signs of blood). Only thing that saved him was a distraction by the military. And him arriving right when the Queen was giving birth? Pure coincidence written conveniently into the script. It's a pretty common narrative trope. He didn't pay any attention to the nest itself. As for him learning... he showed your basic kind of Kaiju thinking I suppose, but really he was just a brawler. Not nearly as smart as other iterations of the creature or even other kaiju like Gamera.

I would agree Legion Queen loses if not for how effective simple military shots were. THe first time she ran into 2 jets she was shot down and lost a wing, never being shown to fly again in the movie, the second time destroying most of the extremities that made her shield. This is pretty low defense wise for a kaiju, granted the MUTOs had a convenient power that stopped this from ever happening to them so we don't know their defense, however G14 did. He took shots from the military at the bridge and while I laugh at the notion people seem to bring that these didn't effect him at all as they clearly did, they definitely didn't have close to the same effect as the missiles used on the Legion Queeen.

The Legion Queen is essentially a glass cannon monster that has a lot of damage but almost no defense outside of that shield that stopped Gamera's fireballs but not missiles so assuming G14 could get through her shots and put up with them enough to get close I think G14 could win this. This is of course in a 1v1 between the two without the swarm, the swarm would decimate him.

I meant to say the Legion Queen wins if not for how effective simple military shots were, but after a year of being broken the edit button still doesn't work.

Wolfguy i truly have no idea where your hatred of Godzilla 2014 came from.

I remember us having battles in the past about this same topic, but when you call us Fanboys as an insult for like the, "CGI Kaiju" is entirely wrong.

TheGman has stated incredible fact's and not to insult you or anything but you have labeled him down as a Godzilla 2014, "Fanboy." I am a proud G14 fanboy but when someone states actual facts you should be a little be respectful of them.

No need to make this seem personal, guys. We're all civilized debaters who have a love for this kind of topic. Don't worry, I'm more than capable of defending myself, GorillaGodzilla, but thanks for the patronage anyways :)

As to Wolfguy's points, they do have some validity. The concentrated fire from the naval fleet did manage to have a small effect on Godzilla. But that was only when they were concentrating their fire directly on his gills, and it took several consecutive hits to achieve even the small amount of damage caused. Sure, Godzilla recoiled more than expected, but he showed no real signs of lasting damage. I've seen it done quite a few times. Military attacks seem to have an effect, but don't really do anything in the end.

It's seen with many monsters from the Gamera trilogy. Gamera has never been actually injured by military ordnance, as well as the Gyaos, Irys, and even the Legion Queen herself. If anything, the Legion Queen showed the most visible effect, but even those were mostly cosmetic damage to weak structural areas like wings and small appendage joints.

Nothing you stated is a fact. Nothing GMAN123 has stated is fact. All of it is nothing but fan theories/fan fiction. "Godzilla's flame disrupted by MUTO EMP attack." "MUTOs have regenerative organs." "The Military focused on Godzilla's gills." Durability... intelligence... Godzilla '14 has had 1 film and 20 minutes of screen time. He was hurt and thrown off course by military missiles, and was nearly beaten to death by the MUTOs. Only thing that saved him was Brody's destruction of the nest.

I have a fan theory too! Oh Oh! What happens when a giant monster rises from the water and only his upper torso is in camera view? Aim for the head! What happens when a human recieves... say... six to seven wasp stings? It's agonizing, but he can still move forward. But what of a hundred? A thousand?

I don't hate Godzilla '14. It's a perfectly average film, and even an average Godzilla film. That IS somewhat of an achievement. Can't touch others like Mothra vs. Godzilla and Godzilla vs. Biollante though.

This is what? The second debate finale to have Godzilla '14 in it, and anytime anyone pops in saying "Hey... there's no proof of him being so powerful" or disputes it, you pop in saying "Hey! Where's the hate coming from? All I state is facts!" But you don't. Even if it's from the novel, that doesn't count as cannon. If we include novels, Mothra is the most powerful kaiju ever since she can exist on an astral plane.

Here's how this battle plays out if there isn't ANY MILITARY INTERVENTION (if we go by the films!!!) - Big ol' bad Godzilla '14 arrives on land, the swarm assaults Godzilla, completely covering him from head to toe, drawing first blood. Godzilla '14 doesn't have any natural defense against such opponents. He can't fly away like Gamera. But the small drones can't quite take him down. The Queen attacks safely from underground with her appendages. Knocks Godzilla aside, and continues to do so, but can't kill him. So she rises and takes to the air. So far, Godzilla doesn't have any real defense against air-bourne opponents except for close range. But Legion Queen can bombarb him from afar with her energy attacks. Even if she has to land to attack, she can just play keep away until he's dead. Gamera could counter this... Godzilla can't.

If this were a film battle, Godzilla would need some McGuffin attack to deal with the Queen. Something he suddenly develops like a final boss weapon, like an extra, long range weapon, or something to deal with the swarm... but from one movie, we can't jude that. You all seem to be able to come up with perfectly good fan explanations for such things, but they're not cannon. You can throw him up against Biollante, Legion, Bagan, but he loses because not much is known about him and his universe.

Space Godzilla vs. Destroyah was actually an excellent debate battle. It's a toss up. This is just like the Godzilla '14 vs. Biollante debate, which is full of what-ifs and fan-fiction just in order to give G'14 a chance.

Wolfguy the series finale for debate week always includes G14. I know there are probably better monsters that could fill the slots but since it's GorillaGodzilla's series that's just how the final will be. Just have fun with it, I know people tend to overrate G14, but then you simply show facts and examples from the movie as we usually do when dealing with the finale. I can't count how many times I've shown how and why G14 books aren't cannon or how he didn't survive a megaton nuke, but it always gets brought up in the next one so you just go with it and prove your point again. 

I forgot to throw in there that Godzilla '14 is still far better than the '98 attempt, and a good Godzilla film. But I can't edit my post. Apparently that feature hasn't been fixed for over a year.

And to Durp004 - All I can say to that is, "uuuuuuurgh..." You'd hope for something more original. I guess I could try something. Used to moderate a kaiju wrestling federation.

To be fair to GorillaGodzilla this is the 6th season a lot of the fights were very good and close in the first two, but he's run out of matches and monster combinations, that's why the Gamera monsters got included this time.

As for the G14 always in the final, I don't have a problem with it per se moreso that he's always put against the top tier monster in the Godzilla universe like Destoroyah, King Ghidorah, G92, Biollante, ect. Against more mid tier older monsters the fights might actually be quite close but when but against the series' strongest he just comes up short.

So, basically everything about what we've seen in these monster franchises and what we gleam from what we've seen in terms of facts is all speculative fan-fiction, if we take Wolfguy's words at face value.

Personal quip aside, for Durp004, plenty of evidence showing that was the case. First of all, in the novel, it's stated that the bomb used against Godzilla in 1954 was Castle Bravo. Now, Captain Hammond's statement of it being kiloton means either he didn't quite fact check right, or that something else is going on. But now we look to the evidence for the argument. Castle Bravo took place on March 1, 1954, at Bikini Atoll. The bomb fielded against Godzilla that we see mentioned in both the film and novel was on March 1, 1954, at Bikini Atoll. Unless two bombs were detonated simultaneously in the exact same area at the same date for completely separate purposes. So, Castle Bravo then. We can agree on that one, I hope.

Next up, examining what Wolfguy claims is "pure speculative fan-fiction". In the novel, it's stated that the M.U.T.O.s have regenerative cells, and that their EMPs disrupt Godzilla's plasma breath. Since no explanation was given in the film for these two things, and since it doesn't contradict anything seen in the movie, it can be used in a factual debate without any issue, since, going by expanded universe logic (following the Halo example), we use the canon of the main media outlet, and then fit what is in expanded material to supplement it.

"First of all, in the novel, it's stated that the bomb used against Godzilla in 1954 was Castle Bravo. Now, Captain Hammond's statement of it being kiloton means either he didn't quite fact check right, or that something else is going on"

Jesus christ this is the most open denial I've ever seen. The movie took over a minute to explain, that they used nukes before then said it was only a kiloton nuke. But according to you, they're wrong. That's right the quote from the movie is wrong and I should listen to you. Please, please, please drop the megaton nuke. As I've said before this is not the real past this is the cinematic past within a movie, got it can we accept that? What was the operation called again? Oh that's right Lucky Dragon, so was that the real name of the operation in real life? No? Well, enough said. 

You can't mix the two outlets, and take bits and pieces of what you want. Any important info would be generated to the live audience that saw the movie, the reason it wasn't is because it's not cannon. The book can't say things that go against the movie then say things the movie doesn't address and we take what we want of those things as fit them in. If you can explain why the movie took time to explain why I'm right about the nuke being kiloton, which you claim is wrong, but didn't explain the important info that is key to the title character's abilities please explain. I'm sure I'll enjoy reading your logic of how a movie can spend time putting incorrect information in(according to you of course) when they could have filled that scene with "facts" about godzilla and the MUTOs

Whoa! Wow!  This is one reason why I don't debate anymore. Some people take this f###ing crap to serious and some are just arrogant. It's sickening to see how debating quickly becomes arguments. 

Gg, no offense but, if you were to have done the so many others that I suggested, this stuff wouldn't have happened.

Durp004, I really don't appreciate that tone. If you're gonna debate with me, at least show me the same respect I've given everyone else, please. With that out of the way......

The statement from Captain Hammond directly contradicts itself, because, as we all know, Castle Bravo was launched on the exact same day at the exact same location as the one he told us about. Castle Bravo is even mentioned in the film in some of the newspaper clippings in Joe Brody's housing. However, we can postulate that perhaps the kiloton bomb was infact Castle Bravo, but the kiloton range was its actual range, and the megaton range of the real-life equivalent changed for the purposes of the film. I don't know. It's the only way I can think that makes it all fit together.

Now, onto the whole "not explaining key abilities" thing. The film never explained what purpose an EMP in an organic creature that never set foot in the present day before would serve, nor the plasma breath for a creature like Godzilla. Very specific things that aren't an accident of evolution. Not too many Kaiju flicks actually explain why and how monsters possess certain traits. But at least with LegendaryGoji, we have supplemental expanded material to fill in the gaps.

The canonicity is in question, yes. But, given that, like the original versions of Halo: The Fall of Reach and Halo: Reach, things were adjusted and/or added into a composite version where the main media outlet takes priority but non-contradictory supplemental material is canon unless refuted later on, I think it serves a perfect example for this situation. Without the extra context, we'd have no background info to work with when debating these characters. It's not like I'm saying the novel takes priority over the film.

Okay, so I was for the first thing. I will admit that I screwed it up with Castle Bravo, but everything else is sound. I know that you, OG Gman, etc., REALLY don't subscribe to using anything but the core movies, but I'm only following the example of a well-established formula for a successful franchise built upon picking and choosing what is and isn't. You gotta admit, anything that doesn't directly contradict the film from the novelization and the Awakening prequel comic makes a lot of sense in terms of providing extra context.

Guys! Let this #### go!  It's only causing stress on your alls shoulders. It's crazy, pathetic, and saddening to see how debates become flame wars and arguments.

Well, I'm not arguing with anyone. Just arguing my point. I never attack anyone else's points. Just provide my constructive thoughts on it, and I provide my rebuttal.

You are allowed to express your point of view. Everyone is. I have never attacked anyone else either. Some little arguments here and there but, I still tried to get along with them. The thing is, everyone here thinks that they are right and won't except anyone else's opinions or the facts when they are provided. 

Well, I DID turn around my viewpoint on the Castle Bravo fiasco though, Ben. That's something, right?

Yes! But, you didn't have to. It's your opinion and apart of your own facts. I personally don't look at the comic book as canon, however, it's a fun little book to help make things interesting. If you do look at it as canon, then that's just fine, not a damn thing wrong with it. You sir, are a fine man. 

Just to say, i am not saying i stated facts. I said Gman was stating facts.